PATRON SAINT PRODUCTIONS, INC. ~ CHAT TRANSCRIPT ~ Patron Saint Productions, Inc. Online Publicity Chat Series Topic: Session #5: Discussion Group Postings Guest: Steve O'Keefe, author of "Complete Guide to Internet Publicity" Date: February 12, 2004 Hello, Steve. Hello, Valda, Michael. Welcome Back! Quick question: Did you receive the reminder e-mail today? Yes. Hi, Steve -- yes, I did receive it. It's good to get the reminders. Good. I was afraid my bulk mail nickname for the class wasn't working. Welcome, JR -- we'll be starting in just a moment. Some things I forgot to mention last session when we were covering linkage campaigns. In the templates section of my web site, there are linkage report templates that can be downloaded and used for free to track a campaign. Welcome, Rachel. Hi, Steve. Welcome, Maureen. We'll be starting in just a moment. Good news on the transcripts front: I just hired a new office manager today! She starts next week. She'll be cleaning our transcripts and posting them to the web site. I feel so accomplished for getting into the room. Is that Maureen Walsh? Congratulations! You are getting to be a real chat pro. I have a question: Is there ANY value at all anymore to Usenet groups? Good question, Michael, and that's a nice segue into today's lesson. So let me get started and see if your question isn't answered shortly. Welcome to the Online Public Relations Chats with your host (me) Steve O'Keefe. Today's topic is Online Discussion Group Postings. I'm going to riff a little, then open it for questions. There are four major types of online discussion groups: 1. Usenet newsgroups. 2. Internet mailing lists. 3. Web site message boards. 4. Commercial service forums (AOL, CompuServe, etc.). To give you an idea of size, there are about 40,000 newsgroups; 200,000 plus mailing lists, and perhaps more than a million web site message boards. These are all special interest discussion areas. The campaign we are discussing today involves locating groups associated with any given subject, then posting messages to these groups that are welcome there, and tracking your results... Oh yes, and handling complaints. Also, these discussion groups come in two flavors: moderated and unmoderated. Let me compare and contrast this campaign with syndication, which we discussed last week. With syndication, you are posting content to other people's web sites: usually articles. With a postings campaign, you usually post short messages offering the content upon request, or pointing people to where they can find the content online. While waiting for questions, let me address Michael's comment: Are Usenet newsgroups still relevant? Yes, they are. Especially moderated newsgroups. In fact, it's now easier to access these groups through the Web. Before, you needed special newsreader software. Those of you who have not seen Usenet Newsgroups should check them out. You'll find free access to many groups at http://groups.google.com. There, you can type in a topic, and find a list of groups where that topic is being discussed. These groups are often choked with spam (if they're unmoderated), but they can still be valuable communications tools, and posting to them will increase your name recognition, brand recognition, and search-engine rank. The two best sources for locating special- interest Internet mailing lists are: http://groups.yahoo.com and http://www.topica.com. Some mailing lists work like newsletters or e-zines and are CLOSED to reader contributions. But many mailing lists are open discussion groups where you may post messages. Many Internet mailing lists are moderated. So a key strategy in online marketing is to identify those mailing lists used by your target market, and then court the good graces of their moderators. I find that Topica gets me scads of mailings and I tend to ignore them all. Valda, that's true that if you subscribe to mailing lists they can generate tons of mail. A couple strategies for coping with that: 1. Many lists allow you to select "digest" mode, so you get one e-mail a day with all the messages instead of one at a time. 2. Set e-mail filters to segregate messages into a separate mailbox and away from your in box. 3. Unsubscribe as soon as you no longer need to monitor the group. Has anyone here posted to online discussion groups before? What kind of experiences have you had? What I look for are fat, moderated groups! Lots of members, and a moderator I can schmooze. Recently someone I don't know posted an article from our site onto a board, the board moderator asked us for more articles. My question is, can we go around posting the articles to boards each month as our newsletter comes out? I'm thinking of picking sites to build relationships with that would be open to this. Rachel, that is beautiful! Yes, you are building relationships with these sites -- not just posting to them. Yes, I've done a couple of posting campaigns. Our best success was with Yahoo. The two people running the campaigns did get kicked out eventually though we had two formal complaints and handled them immediately. I think Yahoo is kind of sensitive sometimes. One problem with posting articles is that, if they are long, people may complain. Short articles are okay, but for long ones, you should post a message saying what the article offers, and then offering to send it upon request. No matter what you post online, you'll get some complaints. I'll talk about how to handle those in a minute. My least lucky place has been CompuServe. It's really confusing to me, for some reason. CompuServe can be a real joy, but you have to win over the forum hosts. Every CompuServe forum is moderated. Nothing stays online long without approval. The names of the moderators (and their e-mail addresses) are usually contained in a staff box in the forum. The nice thing about CompuServe is that -- unlike AOL -- EVERY forum has a library. Once you join the forum, you may upload files into the library. It is up to the forum hosts whether to release those files or not. We can upload excerpts and articles? That's correct, Rachel, you may yourself upload files without permission. But they won't be released unless the forum host approves. What is the address to locate the CompuServe forums? Just a sec, Michael. If the forum host does not release your file in three days, write to them and ask why not. Ask if there is anything you can do to change the file to make it conform to forum standards. This is how you start to build relationships, and set yourself apart from the spammers: You are trying to contribute, and you are willing to work with the hosts. Once you win them over, you've got a friend for life. All your future uploads will get a rubber- stamp approval. Michael, can you e-mail me for that URL? I can't seem to visit another web page while I'm in this chat. Sure. Thanks. I think the address is http://go.compuserve.com/forumcenter. But you have to be a member of CompuServe to post to the forums. HOT TIP: If you are an AOL member, you can access CompuServe forums through the web using your AOL screen name and password at no extra charge! Cool, I didn't know that. Thanks, Steve. In your opinion, do people really read from the libraries or is it small return? Rachel, yes, people do read from these libraries. On average, an excerpt I post to a CompuServe forum will get downloaded about 20 times in the first week. Plus, these articles stay online for years -- whether posted on CompuServe or elsewhere. They increase your visibility and search-engine rank. I was in a CompuServe forum about a month ago, and saw the download numbers for a file I installed in 1998: 2,536 downloads. Of course, it was an excerpt from the book, "Mindblowing Sex in the Real World," so I guess sex sells! For an average campaign, I post to about 40 discussion groups, including: 1. Usenet newsgroups. 2. Yahoo groups. 3. MSN groups. 4. AOL groups. 5. AOL forums. 6. CompuServe forums. 7. Web site message boards. Multiply 40 groups by 20 downloads, and you've got some good exposure! Here's a good tip for finding web site messages boards: Go to Google and type in "moderated message board" TOPIC, where TOPIC is the topic you're interested in. This will help you quickly weed out the unmoderated boards that are choked with spam. You may have to play with that search string to get good results: Try "moderated message threads" or moderated "message boards" or "discussion groups." Play with placement of quotation marks, and singular/plural words -- you'll quickly find what you're after. Do you post different things to the 40? Valda, I post essentially the same message to all groups. So let me talk about message creation for a moment. I follow a standard three-part message format: PITCH, CREDENTIALS, ACTION ALTERNATIVES. 1. THE PITCH: I have permission to distribute an excerpt from the new book, "How to Be Cherished"... 2. CREDENTIALS: The authors are a psychotherapist and business therapist who have a successful workshop practice in Manhattan. ACTION ALTERNATIVES: To get the excerpt, send me e-mail. Let me know if you want the chat schedule... You have to keep it short. You have to offer something of value that is on-topic with the subject of the discussion group. You should be clear when offering things about file formats and size: "Please specify Word, text, or PDF." "This is an MPEG file that is 14 megs." That sort of thing. Avoid all commercial triggers: no prices, order numbers, dollar signs, toll-free phone numbers, etc. You can put all that stuff at the end of the article you're offering to send. I don't even use URLs in discussion group postings. A lot of moderators will remove postings if they're trying to get people to visit a web site. And no BS, please. I will never say, "I loved this site, you should go visit it," when the site is owned by a client. No fake endorsements. People online are not stupid, and you're doing a disservice if you treat them like sheep being advertised to. Do you need to participate in the discussion a little before posting? Does it matter that much? Rachel, good question. No, you do not need to participate at all before posting. But you do need to participate after. I check on my postings for three days. If there's feedback, I respond. If not, after three days, I stop checking. Same goes for groups you subscribe to (mailing lists). I'll subscribe, post, watch for three days, unsubscribe. Also, avoid all rich formatting in discussion group postings: plain ASCII text, please. Do you respond to any flaming? Or just ignore it? Michael, that's a great question and brings me to the flaming portion of the show. Michael, the first thing to do is to ASSESS YOUR POSITION. Don't just reply with a knee-jerk reaction, one way or another. If someone complains PRIVATELY -- that is, sends me e-mail calling me an idiot -- I tend to ignore them. There are lots of people all wound-up on the Internet looking for a target; you don't want to volunteer to take the bullet. If they complain PUBLICLY -- that is, in the same forum where the message was placed -- I feel I need to take action. First, I look to see if I was in the wrong. If so, I apologize publicly. If not, then I will usually defend the posting. I don't suffer bullies well. How do you defend a posting? If the group has a charter or founding document, I may refer to that. Oftentimes, these charters will say things like "messages about gatherings in the aerospace industry are welcome." So if I get flamed for posting an aerospace event schedule to that forum, I'll quote chapter and verse of the charter in my defense. If it is an unmoderated forum, I will say, "Hey, this is an open forum and I'm free to post what I want. You're free to not like it. But my message is on-topic, and fits with the level of discussion here." Usually, the sane people in the forum will provide an Amen Chorus at that point, and together you will politely drum down the complainer. How do you handle "public defamation," i.e., if someone calls you "an idiot/left-wing something" in the group? Valda, my Dad told me not to argue with idiots lest I be confused for one. He's right! I try to elevate the discussion to whether the posting was appropriate or not, and avoid the name- calling. Although I have been known to engage in a tactic called "the controlled burn." Messages that generate a lot of responses tend to draw a crowd. Sometimes, by defending a posting, more people read it. Then they engage in a war of words, and each time my subject line gets repeated. Each message contains quoted bits of my original. Sometimes heat can be a good thing. When I look for threads to post to, I look for the "heat index": How much traffic is this discussion getting? I want to be where the traffic is, know what I mean? A couple more safety tips: I always use "throwaway" e-mail addresses for public postings. It cuts down on the spam. Most Internet accounts come with five to 10 e-mail addresses or screen names. I'll use a special address for postings for a few months, then throw it away when it starts getting too much spam. Any time you post anything publicly, your address will be sniffed, grabbed, sold, and passed around like a bad cold. Get good at using e-mail filters -- they will save you lots of time sorting and processing replies. How much time? One assistant of mine spent six hours a day processing e-mail until we installed a good set of filters for her. The result: 30 minutes a day. Nice. Watch out for funny stuff happening to your computer. Idiots might e-mail bomb you or try to hack you -- who knows? It's a dangerous world out there. Have good virus software installed. And if something seems funny, investigate! There are several discussion groups devoted to reporting Internet abuse. I've never been reported for abuse. But when something funny starts happening, I check these groups to see if anyone has complained about my activities. You'll find links to many of the sites we've discussed here today in the section of my site called Resources/Links/Discussion Groups. There are also templates here on the site you can use for postings and postings reports. Next week, we will be talking about Online Newsletters. Thanks for attending today. I'm happy to answer questions or help with campaigns. Sometimes even add a little humor to the proceedings. I certainly have a lot to learn about -- thanks, Steve. This is off-topic, but do you get involved in any of the web rings? Do they have any real value? Michael, I will use web rings when I'm looking to syndicate articles. Sometimes it's easier to follow a ring than to find sites in a directory. But my site doesn't participate in a ring. Have a great Valentine's Day, everyone! Buy some flowers! Thanks for the info. Thanks, Steve. See you next week. __________________________________________________ ABOUT THE GUEST STEVE O'KEEFE is the author of the outdated classic, "Publicity on the Internet" (Wiley, 1997), and the updated new book, "Complete Guide to Internet Publicity" (Wiley, 2002) -- based on over 1000 online campaigns. Steve pioneered many online marketing techniques which are now considered standard practice. Steve's writing has appeared in over 100 publications including The Wall Street Journal, Harper's, Internet World, PR News, Outside, Small Press, Salon, Curio, NetWorth, and HotWired. Steve is a member of the adjunct faculty at Tulane University where he teaches online public relations. He is Executive Director of Patron Saint Productions, Inc., a publishing consultancy specializing in online marketing strategy, campaigns, and training. __________________________________________________ ABOUT THE BOOK Complete Guide to Internet Publicity: Creating and Launching Successful Online Campaigns by Steve O'Keefe Published by John Wiley & Sons, Inc. (2002, ISBN 0-471-10580-5, 436 pages, softcover, $34.95) Available in most bookstores online and off. "Nobody knows more about making a splash on the Internet than Steve O'Keefe. And no book reveals better how to do it than this one." -- Fraser P. Seitel, Author of "The Principles of Public Relations" "Steve O'Keefe's book is, by far, the most comprehensive Internet publicity book available. It's a tool that any business owner or publicist needs to read to conduct an effective online PR campaign." -- Lorilyn Bailey, CEO, NewsBuzz.com "Complete Guide to Internet Publicity" is the bedrock reference book for designing and implementing online publicity campaigns. The book takes a "how-to" approach, with detailed instructions for planning the campaigns, creating the materials needed, launching the campaigns, dealing with any problems, and measuring the results. The instructions are highlighted with anecdotes culled from hundreds of campaigns conducted by the author and other Internet publicity professionals. Chapters include: 1. The Power of Internet Publicity 2. E-Mail News Releases 3. Online News Rooms 4. Discussion Group Postings 5. Newsletters and Direct Marketing 6. Chat Tours 7. Online Seminars and Workshops 8. Web Site Registration and Linkage 9. Contests and Other Fancy Promotions 10. Syndicating Your Promotions 11. Building an Online Publicity Operation "Complete Guide to Internet Publicity" is a goldmine for those people responsible for online publicity operations, whether as managers, professionals, instructors or students, including such professions as marketing, advertising, web site design & construction, e-commerce, direct marketing, and customer service. The book and companion web site both include templates for all the campaign materials described, and time-saving resources to help locate target audiences online. This book is essential to anyone charged with promoting a product, service, company, person, or web site. Order your copy today. __________________________________________________ Copyright ©2004 by Patron Saint Productions, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Please request permission before duplicating or distributing this document. For reprint permission, send mailto:permissions@patronsaintpr.com. Thank you.